'It was a mesmerising act of betrayal'
Writer James Graham on the interview that floored Thatcher
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- Caroline Frost
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Why did you want to write about this political interview?
I’ve written about politics [Brexit: the Uncivil War] and about media [Quiz], and this felt like a delicious meeting of those two worlds. Going back to one political interview that millions watched and that changed history – especially when you learn that they were close and it was arguably an act of betrayal – I found it mesmerising.
Were you previously aware of these two figures?
Growing up in a Nottinghamshire mining community, Thatcher was always a huge presence. This version isn’t the Falklands warrior, or the hectoring PM at the ballot box. It gave me the chance to paint her in colours you wouldn’t normally see. I’m too young to have watched Weekend World, so I immersed myself in archive footage. The first time I heard Steve Coogan’s Brian Walden was on a Zoom meeting, and it felt as though Walden had emerged.
Did your view of Thatcher change in making this?
If you ran any of her interviews with Walden alongside anything Liz Truss did on screen, it’s embarrassing. Thatcher made her points, but she also responded to the question like a human being, said things that weren’t popular and explained why. She treated the audience with respect, and that’s satisfying as a writer. Plus, to her credit, at that worst moment in her leadership, she turned up for an hour-long political interview when most people would have dodged it.
James Graham. Jeff Spicer/Getty Images
Both parties were up for a long, forensic interview. Why does that happen less now?
It’s painful now, watching any interview. The interviewer starts negatively, then the minister goes on the defensive. You watch this dance, where they’re not talking to each other, and you despair. What’s the point? This kind of democratic instrument is in real crisis.
Why should that matter to us?
If the public discourse reduces itself to being simplistic, unsophisticated soundbites that treat the world as black and white, I don’t have faith that complicated solutions will be arrived at. As populism keeps growing, it becomes about saying what you think people want to hear, instead of finding the skill and language to say, “This is really difficult, here are some solutions and I’d like to hear your thoughts”. We also have to take responsibility as citizens. If we share gladiatorial clips instead of accepting the difficult job they have, we don’t deserve a complicated political system.
In 2025, how do you get your politics?
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I don’t watch I’m a Celebrity… I listen to the Today programme, podcasts. They say no one would listen to an hour of Brian Walden these days, and yet week after week we do the same thing with podcasts. This drama isn’t me saying we should go back, it’s just remembering the value of the political interview and wondering what modern-day versions can exist.
Authors
Caroline Frost
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